Sustainability in 2024: Reflections and Projections

Will: [: 00:00:00

Charlie: And I'm Charlie Luxton, I'm an architectural designer and I focus on sustainable buildings.

This is our first podcast of: 2024

Charlie: Happy New Year, Will.

Will: I hope you had a good Christmas.

Charlie: Yeah, it was good actually. It was very nice. It was very nice indeed.

Will: What did you get up to?

Charlie: Uh, family, and actually I managed to go skiing, which was good, um, and there was snow, which is good, considering the way snow in the Alps is changing, and I haven't skied for years and I really enjoyed it. And I took my kids and tried to teach them, with mixed success. An 18 year old girl is not easy to teach to ski, a 16 year old boy is quite easy to teach to snowboard. That's what I sort of learned

Will: . [: 00:01:00

Charlie: They got it in the end.

Will: Awesome.

Charlie: And you, what did you do?

Will: I had the in laws over. I had my other half's sister and brother in law and kids for three weeks and parents in law.

Charlie: Three weeks?

Will: For three weeks at home.

Charlie: Excellent. Back to work.

Will: No, if I'm honest, it was brilliant and I loved it because A, it was just busy and it just got you out of work because I just wasn't able to think about work because I had kids running around and everything doing everything and then we went up to the Cairngorms for the snow as well. So we got a bit of skiing in as well.

Charlie: Very nice. Excellent.

Will: So this is our first podcast of 24. We thought we'd start the year by talking about some of the big things that are coming up for sustainability in the next 12 months, and also do a proper, slightly overdue welcome to you, Charlie.

s nice to, to sort of have a [: 00:02:00

Will: I know I'm, I'm actually enjoying it because we've known each other for so long and we talk at family events and we're not related but you're married to my cousin and I think you and I are the only sustainable, no I can't say sustainable people, but people who work in sustainability in, in the family.

Charlie: That's probably more fair. I'm not sure there are any sustainable people, if I'm totally honest, anywhere, you know, it's just sort of, I'm not sure that's a, that's a totally accept, you know.

it about your involvement in [: 00:03:00

Charlie: No, it's, it's wider architecture in the past and I've done sustainability staff and I'm doing a bit of history staff and yeah, all kinds of things really over the years. I mean, I've been doing TV over 20 years, so, you know, in that time you'd cover quite a lot of stuff.

Will: It's not all about sustainability within TV, is it? But it did, has it transitioned into it or was it always at the beginning and it's just in and out?

sh in Australia and the dawn [: 00:04:00

And I remember someone saying, yeah, but you'll log them for the next five years. Then you won't have a job and there won't be any rainforest left. And I remember as a kid going, Oh yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. Like this is really stupid. And that sort of like, and I only really thought about this a few years ago when someone.

I was talking to someone else about where it came from, my interest. Fast forward to about 18 and I was quite into the alternative scene and you know, what have you, and we're traveling in India and I remember standing on a railway station and getting a dahl and a chai, so like a little bit of curry and a cup of tea and the tea came in a sun baked mud cup and the dal came in a pressed piece of banana leaf with a little wooden thing.

g. But you know, it was only [: 00:05:00

And I remember just looking at it going. Oh my god, you can do more with less. And it was like in a kind of an epiphany moment of, I mean, I've never liked waste and, and, and just this idea of doing more with less and less. And then when it's architecture and got really involved in sustainable architecture, and then it kind of spun forward into, you know, that's what I was really interested in my degree.

And then went and worked in Ethiopia and ecotourism for eight, nine months on a, in a bird sanctuary, trying to protect a last bit of rainforest or montane rainforest in the upper reaches of the Rift Valley and sort of came back and then went to do a master's and stumbled into television. Which was kind of weird, you know, I didn't want to be on TV.

he notice board at the Royal [: 00:06:00

th of January year: 2000

And they just gave me a piece of paper and said, right, go on then. What are you going to say? Um, right. There's no trick. There's no train. It is, well, it's a bit of a script, but what are you going to say? And I just started talking. And that, and that was, that was it. And interestingly, like in those early days did manage to get some sustainability into TV, but what I've done over 20 years is every time I try and talk about building on a project, I try and talk about the sustainability as an underlayer to it, you know, as like, that's a given.

important, certainly around [: 00:07:00

But it's a given. So let's not just say this is a sustainable building. It's like it's a building and therefore it should be sustainable. And that's been a, you know, that's been a really interesting journey. And then, so that's in, in television within, within my private practice, you know, I've started my business 18 years ago and we were, we've been very focused on. on low energy architecture. And that has really moved from interestingly being sort of, you know, I remember going to sort of talks on sustainability or giving talks on sustainability and it would be in a sort of sort of small shed somewhere. Uh, you know, and recently

you're going to give [: 00:08:00

And people are, yeah. And people are, you know, it used to be a lonely industry as you well know, you know, you'd wander around, there weren't many of you and now it's really taking off and it's exciting. And, and I think that's what gives me sort of confidence or at least optimism. I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm confident.

We're going to have a world the same as I was born into, but it gives me real optimism that the pace of change is rapid. And if we decide to tackle it, truly decide to tackle it. I think there's amazing things we can achieve. It's just that. Yeah. Time pressure. Yeah. You know, with, with the speed of climate change, with the speed of biodiversity loss, you know, it's, it's really tight.

It's going to be really tight.

Will: And what are you working on at the moment? You're, you've just finished a show, haven't you?

think it's called that. The [: 00:09:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Will: Hmm.

Charlie: And so I was in my mind, it's called historic homes. And so for years, it's been like, I'm filming up to historic times, historic instead of that. And then like, before it goes out, they change it. And you're like, Oh, okay. Great British restoration challenge. It's called. And it's really nice actually. It's about people converting structures that weren't built to be houses into houses. And this series is a brilliant one. A guy called he's my new hero guy called. Eddie Butterworth and he restores shepherd huts and he does it like he restored the shepherd hut. It had been on this local estate where this guy's father had been the head woodman. He'd managed to get it off the estate because he used to play with it with his sister. The wood that they used to repair it had grown on the estate. Eddie uses a wood fired Steam engine to cut all his wood powered from the wood from the local estate. He does all his own forging. He makes everything

and [: 00:10:00

Will: Oh, brilliant. I look forward to watching.

Charlie: And I think what's really encouraging about, about this is when you meet people, a lot of them are really pushing sustainability well beyond what building regs is requiring because they understand that actually a really low energy home.

Is a better home, it's more comfortable, it's cheaper to run, and it's going to be a better investment in the long term. Uh, and healthier. Uh, and so it's sort of, and I suppose that's the thing that's always been slightly head scratching, is the fact that the government's so far behind in legislation, or has been so far behind in legislation, compared to what people want to do if they're building their own homes.

Not what developers want to do if they're building a home for someone else and there's absolutely no Incentivization for them to make the house low energy

Will: Culturally, we've almost we went backwards to go. I remember going to see Visit Laura. She lived in...

Charlie: your wife.

e in quite a stately home in [: 00:11:00

Then, there wasn't a climate change then, but people recognized, why are you wasting so much? You're wasting energy. You're wasting food. You're wasting, you're wasting all these resources. And I just find it fascinating that now we're, we're almost wanting to be driven by legislation. I just find it's bizarre.

we've kind of been driven by [: 00:12:00

Charlie: Yeah, and so the question that comes to mind is why, and I think it is this thing of waste. That's where it's driven from for me, is I can't stand the idea of waste. Both my parents brought up in the Second World War, and I think there's that mindset of not wasting.

still lived on in them and has gone on to some of us. And I think there never has been enough, but there's been an illusion of enough, probably grown out of the eighties and sixties consumption sort of boom. But it was never there. It was an illusion. There's never been enough for everyone to have everything they want because the impact on the planet is too high.

ed at the time, I imagine in [: 00:13:00

And then everyone perceived that there was, and there never has been. And I think that that that that's the transition isn't it is to understand that there's enough I mean, it's such a trite phrase, but there's enough for what we need and not for what we want And I think that works very well But you know, you know in terms of sort of optimism about where things are going and what we're doing So the TV is one side and then in our practice the the things that working on the moment They're really exciting when we're looking at a large rewilding visitor experience to try and connect people to So the idea is that you would come to a place and it would teach you the importance of nature and biodiversity from a window box to a regenerative landscape, a regenerative farming landscape, and tell you the stories and the ways in which other ways of approaching growing in our relationship to nature can benefit both us and the world.

d that, and there's a really [: 00:14:00

They're an amazing organization, actually, called Evenload Investment, and they are employee owned completely. They're a B Corp. And they give a lot of money to, to local charities and you know, they're an amazing organization and they, and they've been an ethical investment firm for their entire lifespan.

And so we're building their new offices in, um, in, in a set of farm buildings. But what's really interesting is that they only really work. In the office about three days a week. Right? And so how do you make a sustainable building that is empty 60 percent of the time? It's very, very difficult. So what we've actually started working with them is creating a wider community engagement sort of process so that other people can use the building with them when they're not there.

u know, we're doing a lot of [: 00:15:00

And we're like piecing those together to make all the internal partitioning where reclaiming all of the. External cladding and drying that and planning that and using that as the internal cladding because it's end of its lifespan on the outside So, you know, and we're reusing these the whole frame and we're reusing the concrete slab to do that. So it should be approaching carbon neutrality in, in construction and operation.

Will: Brilliant. Brilliant. [: 00:16:00

Charlie: Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, it's, what was very interesting about sustainability 18 years ago is you'd start off and you'd come up with all these great ideas and some of them were brilliant. So some of them were, you know, had sort of gone, gone by the wayside and weren't proven to be so brilliant, but, but, and, and then the budget would come in and nearly all of it would get cut out. And actually about 15 years ago, we moved out of London to the countryside and we, Got this little thatch cottage that we got.

And, um, and it was like, right, I'm going to do everything on this and I'm going to do it and I'm going to learn about the pros and cons. So wood fiber insulation. So I mean, it's not, not some of it wasn't novel. Some of it was wood pellet boilers, lots of insulation, radon protection, wood fiber, lime plaster internally,

ied everything to really go, [: 00:17:00

What is the life cycle kind of of it, how much maintenance is there? Because that is important. And, you know, having done that, it's funny you do a project like that. And suddenly at that time, you were an expert and not just an expert sort of within 20 miles nationally. You know, you've done work that a lot of, very few people had really done.

And, and, and that seems to have been the thing that's gone on is that we then do another project. It's like, right, let's really do this. So we've done a load of carbon modeling on a community housing project in the village. We did that about five years ago. So embodied carbon, how much carbon it takes to make the things that make the building, as well as the thermal modeling to understand the energy that it takes to run the building once it's built.

And having done this carbon [: 00:18:00

And then, you know, which is extraordinary.

Will: Do you think that's because you're willing to take a risk?

Charlie: Yeah.

Will: Because I felt when we did up our house, I kept on coming up with different things for the builder and the architect. And even though the architect said he was, you know, he was environmental, he was basically our project manager.

It was green roofs and that was really expensive. There wasn't small things that, so I was going, what about hemp, um, hemp insulation? Because it's cheap. It's, I know it's a bit more expensive, but it's also longer lasting. And there were other things that I had kind of read about, but they didn't want to do it.

And because I was just, I'm [: 00:19:00

then falls apart. They weren't willing to take the risk. So therefore we went down quite a conventional route.

Charlie: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, I think architects have been quite conventional because they're specifying so many different things.

Uh, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of things, really, if you think about it, you know, there's hundreds of thousands of components that go into a building and controlling the quality on those things is, is, is a challenge. And I think quite often people just revert to norm. to do that. And it's not good enough.

I accept that a hundred percent. It's not good enough. Yes. And I think it's partly because we're prepared to take some risks. I'm not, these are not out with normal risks, you know, and we carry all the normal indemnity insurance due to diligence. Actually, I think it is that we're willing to do the extra work that it takes to work out if something's going to function as the way you want it.

, you need to do a lot more. [: 00:20:00

I don't want to take it on a client, but I'll take it on myself and then I'll roll it out. And so for example, without, we built our office two years ago and we worked, you know, with an old tin. You know, metal framed shed. And we reuse the concrete slab by leveling screed and a bit of local repairs. We use the steel frame by just moving bits of steel around to stiffen it.

Um, had to buy about four bits of steel to stiffen the frame out. We use the pre cut timber I beam system in to make the house to basically build a building inside the tin frame because those steel and corrugated iron frames are very highly engineered to just take the weight of the wind. And the cladding, they're not designed to take load.

stake everyone makes is they [: 00:21:00

So when the building comes to the end of its life cycle, you should be able to just lift the building off and reuse that polystyrene elsewhere because we've kept it as big sheets and as standard sheets as possible. Um, We put solar panels on the roof, we put an air source heat pump, we put in heating in the heater matrix, so the NVHR, mechanical ventilation heat recovery.

So we're heating and cooling the air from a very small heat pump as the air comes into the building. And sort of in doing all of those things, you know, we brought together a whole lot of techniques that hadn't been done before that I was willing to test on myself. And the idea of, of it is to massively reduce waste and reduce embodied carbon.

aving built the building, we [: 00:22:00

So we tried that on ourselves and now we're rolling that out for this big ethical investment company. So I think there's something about taking risks. And if you do it for yourself, you, you sort of, you tend to go a bit further and take a bit more risk. And, and, and I think that's really important. And that's, I think, really been the driver for everything we've done in Charlottesville design.

[: 00:23:00

And so that's, that's really interesting. You start off going, I just want to do this really well. And then you go in and rent a ward and people are like, Oh my God, this is, this is way beyond what most people are doing. And this is pretty exceptional. And hopefully you can tell stories about it. And what about you?

Tell me what, why, why are you, why are you green element and sustainability solved and pay a footprint? What is that? What is that journey?

Will: So it's funny. I think very similar to you, a very common theme through early childhood, picking up litter on Wimbledon Common with my gran. I've

got very fond and vivid memories of walking around and Abu Dhabi as well, actually around the beach there.

my school reports the other [: 00:24:00

Interesting. but strange nevertheless. And, um, I think, and I completely forgotten about that completely. So I was clearly impassioned enough to want to do talks on climate change at that point. Um, cause if you don't remember, that was the late 80s and we knew about climate change really to start off with in the late 50s, early 60s.

and we're still [: 00:25:00

s, you know, and then back in: 2004

totally. Ultimately. Yeah. I [: 00:26:00

I think I needed a job that I actually woke up in the morning when this is the right thing to be doing. This is what I want to do. And, um, yeah, we are here today. And do you still, do you still have that, that passion? Yeah. People talk about climate anxiety a lot and I don't, um, and I think that I remember going through climate anxiety in the early two thousands quite badly and not wanting to fly at all, not wanting to do anything really worrying about the state of the world.

to be very careful about how [: 00:27:00

I don't get upset and I think it's years and years and years You know when you get um,

Charlie: it's a callous, isn't it? It's like a callous or a blister It's yeah years of concern after a while. You just can't be as yeah deeply Traumatically concerned

Will: no, no, and I do wonder if that's a good thing or a bad thing I'm still here, still fighting a fight.

out to finish up a community [: 00:28:00

In construction, occupation, housing scheme in the village. And, and that, you know, that to me is how you make change now. It's been really difficult to take five years and it's, you know, I've gone gray during the processes has most of the community people have been involved partly because it's taken so long, not because it's been difficult, but, but that to me is how you make change really.

is, is by setting up light beacons of good stories and, and, and I think that's what we need. We need, you know, I think for a long time sustain, you know, and I stopped, so I, you know, I've talked about sustainability a lot, you know, in, in, in, in commercial settings, in, in corporate settings and stuff to try and get people to understand.

And I think about: 2007

I guarantee it. I mean, we go on holiday on the train all the time and I flipping love it. It's the best thing ever. Yeah. Eat more vegetables. If you learn how to cook them really well and you have meat once or twice a week, you won't miss it and it will be better for you health wise and the planet. So I think it's like, and I really think it's about actually sustainability is about yes and better in, in many ways, not always, but in many, many ways.

And actually I think that's, that's the issue is going out and protesting is valid. Absolutely bloody valid. And I'm, I'm very glad that someone's doing it. But equally, I think we also need a counterpoint, which is. This is better. Like this, these ways of living. So, for example, sustainable, low energy homes are simply better.

are healthier. They are more [: 00:30:00

it was probably around about: 2007

Charlie: Cut to the chase, man. I mean, dress it up.

Will: And I was staying, I was staying there and they were very environmental, the people.

t, um, which sounds slightly [: 00:31:00

And, um, he was horrified. He was like, I was there last week, we were protesting, it was part of Greenpeace, we were protesting, I was in charge of this camp and my girlfriend was one of the people that climbed up one of the towers and I can't believe that you were there for environmental reasons. And I then ended up going to the site and then talking and saying, Oh yeah, I was with some friends over the weekend and actually they were the.

People that were protesting outside and they were equally as horrified. I can't believe you're friends with these people. That's, and I was looking at them going, you are on an environmental audit. So therefore you should be actually going, actually, we need all aspects. The only way society is going to change is you have people that are willing to take risks.

illing to throw money at it. [: 00:32:00

Charlie: I remember doing a film actually and flying to Denmark on a plane. Kallenborg, it's called, I think. And it's a, it's part of, sort of, it's a coal fired power station.

But it sits at the heart of this industrial symbiosis network, right? So, the gypsum from the coal powered fire station Coal powered fire station, always get that wrong, uh, is used to make, uh, plasterboard. The hot water is fused in a fish farm. And there's, there's this, this is, I think there's like 22 businesses that share byproducts and waste products around in this, in this model.

, is not there, but actually [: 00:33:00

big, was quite a big focus on: 2020

28. Is it 28? Yeah, COP 28. And I think very cack handedly the guy running it tried to sort of say that, that we can't get rid of, you know, hydrocarbons anytime soon. And I'm really interested in how that has sort of bubbled up and how that is sort of twisting the conversation. You know, these things are going to be there, seemingly.

Um, and I wonder what your take on that is, this kind of new understanding. I know that's the government's sort of argument about the big new Rosebank oil field.

hink it's a load of bollocks [: 00:34:00

We used less fossil fuels last year in the UK than we've ever used before. We really are on a trajectory to, um, not using fossil fuels at all. So I think the government aren't, what they're not doing is actually looking at the actual usage. They're not, they're looking at their pockets and looking at how much money they can earn from fossil fuel companies, giving them donations.

But, but what they're not doing is actually thinking about the country and thinking about what. We are actually able to use and what we can do. Um, there's a great app that I've got on my phone called, um, it's basically it shows you the exact, um,

Charlie: Carbon intensity of the grid.

Will: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Most geeks, most geeks have got it.

, I like, yeah, I go, that's [: 00:35:00

Will: and I just, it just surprises me that, and this is what worries me. We've just about to go into 24, which is the biggest year for politics that we've ever had. And, you know, we've just, we've just had, um, Um, Republic of Congo, um, we're just about to have the Taiwanese, um, election.

We have Bangladesh, Brazil, India, Indonesia, you know, the list goes on. The UK, maybe this year, the latest it's going to be, no, it doesn't. The latest is January the 15th in 25. But, um, it's highly likely it's going to be this year. But the latest it can be is, I don't, don't ask me why, I read it, I read it recently.

Charlie: You have to dissolve parliament, so it could be six weeks after we can put it about that date. Yeah, okay.

ng to be very interesting to [: 00:36:00

did believe that, but I think: 2023

ity, or you know, zero carbon: 2050

le around the sustainability [: 00:37:00

And actually even in Germany, you know, there is starting to be who have traditionally been, there's been, again, there's been a complete. Understanding that this is the way it is. This is where we're going that is starting to be challenged by some of the pushback to two policies there. So I, I'm, I, I, I worry that the right, the right wing, uh, you know, the right wing press, uh, is sort of gaining momentum and see, and now seeing sustainability is being back on the agenda as one of the buttons to press.

Uh, and, and, and it deeply worries me for this year. And I think we'll know a lot more at the end of it about where we're going to go and whether, you know, we should just, uh, Yeah, keep moving north.

Will: I do wonder, I do wonder if it's right wing or populist. I think there's a nuance. I actually think, I think there's a nuance there and I think, populist, I think populist.

ht wing people. They're very [: 00:38:00

Charlie: Yeah, no, I agree. It's a, it's a very interesting intersection. The majority of right wing, the majority of popular populists tend to operate on the right wing, but they're not exclusive.

No, I think it's a really good point. And it is populism. And, and, you know, and I think, I think we've got a real challenge in the media in this country who seemingly are very happy to make broad, unsubstantiated claims with limited research about sustainability. I mean, they've been doing it for years. I mean, we, for example, in my local village, we tried to put a wind turbine up years ago before the moratorium on wind turbines.

his country. I mean, are you [: 00:39:00

We can get a mortgage. We've done the met mast. We're going to make about 70, 000 quid a year back. Then now imagine what we'd be making when it was like 12, 14 P a kilowatt. Um, And, and we will put the money straight into the community and oh my God, you know, most people didn't say anything. A few people really supportive and there was a few hardcore people totally anti it and prepared to say anything like they never paid to just make stuff up, literally just making stuff up without any research about, they never pay back the carbon that's in, but you know, that's used to manufacture.

use they didn't really, they [: 00:40:00

And, and, you know, I think modern sustainability is. Absolutely driven by numbers and efficiency, because that's what it's all about, right? Doing less with more, you know, doing more with less, sorry, more with less. Don't get that the wrong way around. That's the problem. Doing more stuff with less. And, and, and I, so it feels very asymmetric.

And that's what I find challenging is that, you know, like when you try and get scientists during the pandemic. Arguing against people that will just make stuff up and speak from the heart. It's, you know, scientists won't and that's the challenge we've got.

Will: Yeah, no, absolutely. What are you excited about coming up in 24?

Charlie: AI.

Will: From a sustainability point of view.

Charlie: Yeah. From an architecture, I'm really focused on architecture. You know, that's what I do. You know, I, I understand what's going on in the wider

industry, you know, and I'm You know, there's some really good stuff going on around, uh, reclaiming minerals out of batteries.

Um, I'm really excited, uh, [: 00:41:00

I know it's very hot topic, but I think it's a important debate to have. Um, I, I'm not sure I totally buy into these. Vast, massive, concrete, intensive constructions, but I'm more interested in the conversation around the smaller units to see where that goes. Um, within architecture, I'm really excited about the role of AI in optimization of buildings, both structure, servicing, thermal design, orientation, optimize, you know, I understand that AI is hugely dangerous, but ultimately what I'm increasingly finding is the way that we get to low energy buildings is through more and more data and more and more, you know, backwards and forwards with the data.

eally excites me. Brilliant. [: 00:42:00

Will: I think I'm excited about the elections. Actually, I think I'm excited that I feel optimistic. I feel optimistic about what's going on in the US.

Charlie: In what way ?

Will: I really don't think Trump we'll win.

Charlie: Oh god Thanks for saying that.

Will: I really don't think he will.

Charlie: I, I, I'm actually gonna bet on Trump winning. Yeah, right I'm gonna bet on Trump winning because if he does win it'll be like, oh god, the world's trashed But at least I got a few hundred quid And if he loses, he'll be like, I lost 100 quid, but who cares?

Will: I think we underestimate Joe Biden. I think that's, I think people do say he's too old, but yes, I can actually understand why. Um, the Democrats are

d commas, because people are [: 00:43:00

It was a bill that was called, I can't remember what it was called. The anti inflation. Yeah. And the first parts of it was so not about. sustainability, but very much within it was all about the environment and everyone voted on it. And it has massively changed the U. S. The U. S. as a country has changed big in the last year and a half, um, from an environmental point of view.

I got quite drunk and had a [: 00:44:00

And this is back in the early: 2000

And so,

Charlie: yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's exactly, you know, that's exactly what, you know, anyway, that I was going to say, that's exactly what happened with Brexit, isn't it? People would say you can't sell bananas and, and Boris Johnson has admitted he just made stuff up to throw stones through windows. You know, he just made stuff up because it would sell papers.

And, and that's what we've got. I think that is the biggest challenge we've got actually is, is the media and it's. Lack of long term commitment to the quality of our society.

So from that point of view, [: 00:45:00

Charlie: What I would say is that I think that there, as, as I just said, I think that there is a huge issue with the media having a lack of investment in the long term success of our society in the widest possible terms. And, and, and I think You know, I think having a multi national media is problematic because the focus moves and country, they move countries, I'm Murdoch to be a classic example, move from Australia to England to America effectively doesn't seem to mind what, what trail of destruction they leave behind them.

know, surely there's an open [: 00:46:00

And it's fascinating. You know, they had this 28 billion fund green fund, which compared to the American 365 billion, I think that anti inflation act is about 365 billion. And they're talking about investing 28 million pounds. dollars, pounds, figures might be wrong, but it's that sort of magnitude. And they, and they, and actually they had independent government.

Did you see that independent government report about the investment required per annum to transition towards carbon neutrality? And they said it would be about 28 billion. That the government needed to put into it, but it would come back in, in savings. And you know, it's not, you know, it all comes back and labor had basically the same thing.

I don't know why coincidence or not. I don't know. But now that they're questioning that I really, really hope that Keir Starmer and his team have the guts to understand that this needs to happen and it's, it needs to happen and it will be better for everybody.

ave had Chris Skidmore, Alec [: 00:47:00

So yeah, that should hopefully help Keir Starmer understand that there is a sentiment out there. And I find it interesting that it's the people that know, it's the people that suddenly have an opinion and were willing to put their actual lives on the line are the people that understand the facts. They go, I've now learned enough to realize why I can't keep on being a politician under a government that don't give a monkeys.

Charlie: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the problem is you're just hollowing out all of them. All of the, you know, centrist conservatives have, have left, which is a problem actually going forward. But anyway, I'm not sure we can solve that. No, but you know, I think the bottom line is. And like you, I am slightly dulled to the challenge of sustainability over 20 odd years.

e age and what have you, but [: 00:48:00

Will: That's it for this episode of Sustainability Solved.

Charlie: Next month, we're going to be talking to Iain Pritchett of Greencore Homes. They are a developer company trying to disrupt the way in which new housing is provided in this country. And we're going to be talking to him specifically about planning and its role in sustainable transition.

Will: If you're trying to be more sustainable this year, you can help others to learn about green issues and increase the visibility of this podcast by leaving a quick review in your podcast app. If you're in Apple Podcasts, for example, scroll down to podcast screen and click on leave a review. Thanks for listening.

I'm Will Richardson.

rlie: And I'm Charlie Luxton.[: 00:49:00